tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post260032689283439786..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: No Complaint Left BehindKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-37430380194339019752007-10-11T13:04:00.000-04:002007-10-11T13:04:00.000-04:00il.comActually, it doesn't matter what district Cr...il.com<I>Actually, it doesn't matter what district Crofton is pulling from when it comes to poor students, so there's no reason to expect a standard deviation higher from that comparison. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>You are conflating two separate things, Cal.<BR/><BR/>You should expect about a standard deviation difference in pass rates between the typical poor Title I school (typical pass rate 20%) and the mean school (pass rate 50%).<BR/><BR/>And, not all poor students are the same. Poor usually means qualifying for free/reduced lunch which is set at about $40k and above which is not far below close to the mean family income. The "poor" kids are much more likely to have a higher family income than the "poor" kids at Tyler.<BR/><BR/><I> I don't agree that we can expect a standard deviation higher from Crofton.</I><BR/><BR/>Crofton is the control. It is doing what most schools do. If Tyler were doing what Crofton is doing then we'd expect a 1 sd difference. But, Tyler has a succussful intervention going on, so that's why they are not performing where we're expecting. Is that clear?<BR/><BR/><I>A distinction without too much difference.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>I understand the error interval issue, see for example the white scores at Tyler and the hispanic scores at Crofton for more extreme examples. We'd need a fairly large deviation to account for 10 points.<BR/><BR/><I>rather, Tyler's exclusive focus on tests is moving them to the same passrates as wealthier schools.</I><BR/><BR/>Tyler is doing test prep and has changed their curriculum -- open court and saxon I think. At this point, we don't know which is more responsible for the increase in test scores. So it may not be the case that Tyler's student ability is that far below Crofton's if in fact the education they've received was legitimate and not test prep based.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-6465285218430840452007-10-11T11:24:00.000-04:002007-10-11T11:24:00.000-04:00"We should expect to see Tyler performing at least..."We should expect to see Tyler performing at least a standard deviation below Crofton in pass rates, perhaps more if Crofton is really pulling from a wealthier than average area. "<BR/><BR/>Actually, it doesn't matter what district Crofton is pulling from when it comes to poor students, so there's no reason to expect a standard deviation higher from that comparison. <BR/><BR/>However, I don't agree that we can expect a standard deviation higher from Crofton. If all that's being tracked is pass rates, then it would be impossible for Crofton to perform a standard deviation above Tyler, if Tyler is succeeding at upping its pass rates. You can't pull away from a perfect pass rate.<BR/><BR/>Tyler, though a lot of work, is getting its students to meet a minimum pass rate. Crofton, with less effort, is meeting the same standard. That's great news for Tyler, but says nothing about Crofton. <BR/><BR/>As for 72 vs 82 on black math performance, it's still got the small sample size problem with only 53 blacks at Crofton. A distinction without too much difference.<BR/><BR/>I agree with your larger point--rich schools don't educate the poor or low-performining minority groups any more than low income schools. I just don't see any evidence that Tyler is outperforming Crofton; rather, Tyler's exclusive focus on tests is moving them to the same passrates as wealthier schools. <BR/><BR/>I bet Crofton students read and calculate, on average, far better than Tyler students. As you say, that has little to do with Crofton's teaching performance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-81629107622244363572007-10-11T10:59:00.000-04:002007-10-11T10:59:00.000-04:00Cal, see my comment above. Yes, black reading sco...Cal, see my comment above. <BR/><BR/>Yes, black reading scores show a small difference, but other scores like black math and poor math and reading show larger differences.<BR/><BR/>Tyler is pulling kids from the projects. Crofton is pulling them a middle class subdivision. We should expect to see Tyler performing at least a standard deviation below Crofton in pass rates, perhaps more if Crofton is really pulling from a wealthier than average area. Instead we see that Tyler is actually outperforming Crofton.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-77016038416848734902007-10-11T10:50:00.001-04:002007-10-11T10:50:00.001-04:00I agree with you about Perlstein, but I'm not sure...I agree with you about Perlstein, but I'm not sure I can go along with your conclusions about Tyler beating the point spread.<BR/><BR/>Crofton has 730 kids, which means that their stats are on 53 black and 15 kids, respectively (if I did the math right, anyway). With that small a sample size, 83 and 86 percent are virtually identical.<BR/><BR/>Tyler spends all its time and then some on the tested subjects, and also probably gets the kids all psyched up for performance on Test Day. Crofton spends time on touchy feely nonsense and probably takes the test as an afterthought. That doesn't diminish Tyler's performance, but I don't see any evidence that Crofton "squandered" their advantage. They're getting the same results with about half the work. <BR/><BR/>Also--and I know you know this--if we switched from over/under to average scores, the numbers would be very different.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-82923593845620170382007-10-11T10:50:00.000-04:002007-10-11T10:50:00.000-04:00No one said they weren't decent, what they are, ho...No one said they weren't decent, what they are, however, is below Tyler's scores. Crofton achieved less with a population in which the expectation is that they should have achieved more all other factors remaining constant.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-8699634200287846832007-10-11T10:33:00.000-04:002007-10-11T10:33:00.000-04:00Those crofton scores look decent to me. Coupled wi...Those crofton scores look decent to me. Coupled with the fact that the croftons are well rounded, plus plus bling blingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1429010992151030322007-10-11T09:18:00.000-04:002007-10-11T09:18:00.000-04:00Anon, I was going by the reviewer's description. ...Anon, I was going by the reviewer's description. The important point is that Crofton has a higher SES than Tyler, the magnitude of that differen ce is not all that relevant to this simple analysis.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-15284567869458576242007-10-11T09:04:00.000-04:002007-10-11T09:04:00.000-04:00As a long-time resident and REALTOR in Crofton, I ...As a long-time resident and REALTOR in Crofton, I take exception to the description of Crofton as a "wealthy" community - check your demographics and home prices. Crofton is a moderately priced area, by county standards, with a mix of price ranges and educational backgrounds of homeowners. Yes, it is a different demographic than Tyler, but you picked the wrong school if you want one in a "wealthy" community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com