tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post3772788256219992676..comments2024-03-02T15:23:18.091-05:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: How not to teach comprehensionKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-27298431473288578662007-03-09T07:34:00.000-05:002007-03-09T07:34:00.000-05:00"If the kids are good fluent decoders, the need fo..."If the kids are good fluent decoders, the need for read alouds diminishes."<BR/><BR/>After decoding, the issue of comprehension becomes prominent. Teacher input could still be valuable to clarify and zero in on vocabulary, point out idioms, point out the use of the subjunctive, explain references, provide background information and generally help the comprehension project along.<BR/><BR/>Kids exhibit a metacognitive deficit for a long time and are notorious for misjudging their own abilities. So they don't ask as often as they should, say, under SSR conditions.Instructivisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01652458042291988959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-69254628626359252162007-03-09T07:14:00.000-05:002007-03-09T07:14:00.000-05:00Ryan's right.From NIFL: Repeated and monitored or...Ryan's right.<BR/><BR/>From NIFL: Repeated and monitored oral reading improves fluency and overall reading achievement. Students who read and reread passages out loud as they receive guidance and feedback become better readers. Researchers have found several techniques to be effective including the reading and rereading of text a number of times (usually four times) until a certain level of fluency is reached, and practicing oral reading through the use of audiotapes, tutors, peer guidance, or other means.<BR/><BR/>No research evidence is available currently to confirm that instructional time spent on silent, independent reading with minimal guidance and feedback improves reading fluency or overall reading achievement. Although this activity's value has neither been proved nor disproved, the research suggests that there are more beneficial ways to spend in-class instructional time.<BR/><BR/>The reason why the kids read aloud is to gte feedback from the teacher. If the kids are good fluent decoders, the need for read alouds diminishes. I believe it usually starts getting faded out by the fourth or fifth grade.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-53360145628041183972007-03-09T01:25:00.000-05:002007-03-09T01:25:00.000-05:00NBosch: I don't think it does, but that's just a ...NBosch: I don't think it does, but that's just a teacher speaking off the cuff--the research might well prove me wrong.<BR/><BR/>I will say that most of the fluency goals that you see (DIBELS, or Hasbrouck-Tindall) are oral reading fluency. One could suppose that the way to increase ORF is to practice ORF.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01136112516250432897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-23965388444667211432007-03-08T23:15:00.000-05:002007-03-08T23:15:00.000-05:00Ken is going to love this NYT article that just ca...Ken is going to love this NYT article that just came out seconds ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/education/09reading.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin<BR/><BR/>More proof of what I have been saying for a long time now: Ideological frenzy trumps money, even prodigious Trump-sized amounts. <BR/><BR/>[MADISON, Wis. — Surrounded by five first graders learning to read at Hawthorne Elementary here, Stacey Hodiewicz listened as one boy struggled over a word.<BR/><BR/>“Pumpkin,” ventured the boy, Parker.<BR/><BR/>“Look at the word,” the teacher suggested. Using a method known as whole language, she prompted him to consider the word’s size. “Is it long enough to be pumpkin?”<BR/><BR/>Parker looked again. “Pea,” he said, correctly.<BR/><BR/>Call it the $2 million reading lesson.<BR/><BR/>By sticking to its teaching approach, that is the amount Madison passed up under Reading First, the Bush administration’s ambitious effort to turn the nation’s poor children into skilled readers by the third grade.<BR/><BR/>The program, which gives $1 billion a year in grants to states, was supposed to end the so-called reading wars — the battle over the best method of teaching reading — but has instead opened a new and bitter front in the fight.]Instructivisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01652458042291988959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-9032136074219065742007-03-08T20:45:00.000-05:002007-03-08T20:45:00.000-05:00I don't teach reading, all my students read 4-8 ye...I don't teach reading, all my students read 4-8 years above grade level but what drives them crazy is listening to kids in the classroom read aloud. People who teach reading tell me reading out loud increases fluency. Does it?nboschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14219753105416637743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-34788259620199258272007-03-08T15:38:00.000-05:002007-03-08T15:38:00.000-05:00I would say there's an important reason to read al...I would say there's an important reason to read aloud to children, which is that until 8th grade kids have higher listening than reading comprehension.<BR/><BR/>In a DI school that might not matter, but in any other school it does.<BR/><BR/>You wouldn't read aloud as a reading lesson, however.<BR/><BR/>You would read aloud in social studies or science.<BR/><BR/>You might also read aloud classic children's literature that's too advanced for the kids.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-16749697721180596452007-03-08T15:37:00.000-05:002007-03-08T15:37:00.000-05:00The Tri-State Consortium model, btw, features frie...The Tri-State Consortium model, btw, features friendly criticism from friendly peers.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-38500413452612263972007-03-08T15:36:00.000-05:002007-03-08T15:36:00.000-05:00What frustrates me about education journalism is t...What frustrates me about education journalism is the suspension of the rule that one seeks comment from the opposition. <BR/><BR/>Education feature stories all read like marketing material, and in fact are used as marketing material.<BR/><BR/>Our little local paper recently did a piece on the "Tri-State Consortium" report on our ELA program.<BR/><BR/>It's happy talk start to finish, with the super telling the reporter how "thrilled" the teachers are (I think "thrilled" was the word.)<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile parents here are in a chronic uproar about the ELA program. It would have been a VERY simple matter to get a couple of quotes from parents about just how thrilled they're feeling about the Tri-State Consortium.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-46750800824478816422007-03-08T15:34:00.000-05:002007-03-08T15:34:00.000-05:00Eric - fantastic find!Eric - fantastic find!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-41437633528296641482007-03-08T12:36:00.000-05:002007-03-08T12:36:00.000-05:00Paula, it sounds more like a decoding issue than a...Paula, it sounds more like a decoding issue than a vocabulary issue.<BR/><BR/>It's a vocabulary issue when the student doesn't know the meaning of words used in speech, i.e., the words are not in his oral vocabulary.<BR/><BR/>It's a decoding issue when the student is unable to read a word that is in his oral vocabulary.<BR/><BR/>I'd suggest administering <A HREF="http://dibels.uoregon.edu/" REL="nofollow">dibels.</A>. It's free and designed to teest decoding skills.<BR/><BR/>You also might want to have him try to read the Reading mastery lesson I linked to in the post. Nominally, this is a mid-second grade test, so a third grader whould be able to read it within the errors limits and be able to answer the comprehension questions.<BR/><BR/>All of the Reading Mastery series have placement tests. Problem is that you have to have the books to get the tests. A chicken and egg problem.<BR/><BR/>I do have the placement tests if you want to shoot me an email (see my profile).KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-11362990210470229162007-03-08T11:49:00.000-05:002007-03-08T11:49:00.000-05:00Perhaps I should clarify. I know where to purchase...Perhaps I should clarify. I know where to purchase it, but I'm not sure which level to begin with my third grader. I'm thinking I need to go back to second grade and go from there.<BR/><BR/>I've noticed he becomes extremely frustrated when trying to figure out words. Forget about context clues. Inference is a difficult skill to use if you haven't been taught to use it properly. Correct? <BR/><BR/>I am confused however on how he could score so high on reading comprehension (a 91 NPR)and yet have trouble with vocabulary. Don't both go hand in hand? <BR/><BR/>--PaulaVPaulaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739268887887184465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-25018722508187182672007-03-08T11:29:00.000-05:002007-03-08T11:29:00.000-05:00I would have thought that the level of "experiment...<I>I would have thought that the level of "experimentation" would have been a tad more sophisticated in 2007</I><BR/><BR/>So what Institutional Review Board OKed unwarranted experimentation on involuntary human subjects? But wait! IRBs exempt educational malpractice: <BR/><BR/>"<A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22research+on+the+effectiveness+of+or+the+comparison+among+instructional%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official" REL="nofollow">Research conducted in established or commonly accepted educational settings, involving normal educational practices, such as (i) research on regular and special education instructional strategies, or (ii) research on the effectiveness of or the comparison among instructional techniques, curricula, or classroom management methods.</A>"<BR/><BR/>So an IRB can approve a program of educational research which fails to meet legal standards compatible with a state constitution's education clause. Of course, highly educated, high SES parents might catch on, so...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-61392170951046683632007-03-08T11:03:00.000-05:002007-03-08T11:03:00.000-05:00Paula, I've been meaning to put a post up on this ...Paula, I've been meaning to put a post up on this and I will later todsy. I've been asked this question a few times recently and I've been remiss in responding.<BR/><BR/>The short answer for you inpateient types: ebayKDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-15043169396040690292007-03-08T09:01:00.000-05:002007-03-08T09:01:00.000-05:00Thanks for your wonderful site. I frequent it (alo...Thanks for your wonderful site. I frequent it (along with KTM) daily. I'm interested in purchasing Reading Mastery for my kindergartener and third grader. However, I'm unsure where to start. My third grader definitely needs a vocabulary boost. His comprehension seems on track according to his ITBS scores. <BR/><BR/>Any suggestions?<BR/><BR/>--PaulaVPaulaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739268887887184465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-80795687192278985452007-03-07T21:27:00.000-05:002007-03-07T21:27:00.000-05:00We can also turn it around again, Ryan, to explain...We can also turn it around again, Ryan, to explain precisely why test scores still languish at low levels after all these years because educators refuse to follow what works.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-81557571837431675242007-03-07T20:24:00.000-05:002007-03-07T20:24:00.000-05:00Ryan, let me take your objections in order.There i...Ryan, let me take your objections in order.<BR/><BR/>There is a place for read-alouds: during those low-instruction hours in the school day outside of the time devoted to reading instruction.<BR/><BR/>I understand the objection to the proficiency levels set for the NAEP. I also understand that those levels are somewhat aspirational. But based on the NASL, I'd say the accurate assessment of literacy is closer to the NAEP level than the WASL level.<BR/><BR/>Management is still management. They run the show and, at least in theory, are responsibble for what goes on in the school. Workers, such as teachers, are obliged to follow management's orders.<BR/><BR/>I'm not criticising what's going on in this school, I'm merely criticising this particular activity. Although, I'm sure you can guess what else goes on in this school based on this one activity.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-44412080706534910002007-03-07T20:09:00.000-05:002007-03-07T20:09:00.000-05:00The Carolina School for Inquiry is so sure that th...The <A HREF="http://www.carolinaschoolforinquiry.org/index.html" REL="nofollow">Carolina School for Inquiry</A> is so sure that the way they teach is right, and that I was wrong in my <A HREF="http://parentalcation.blogspot.com/2006/10/carolina-school-for-inquiry-takedown.html" REL="nofollow">critism</A> of them that they have <A HREF="http://parentalcation.blogspot.com/feeds/116144528810642333/comments/default" REL="nofollow">personally invited</A> me to visit their school.<BR/><BR/>I even had a doctoral student at the USC School of Education, tell me that an their method is based on education research. Of course she referenced a <A HREF="http://www.ncte.org/store/books/wholelang/106381.htm" REL="nofollow">puff piece</A> instead of hard evidence.TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-25160730549766888582007-03-07T19:44:00.000-05:002007-03-07T19:44:00.000-05:00Is there ever a place for read-alouds in the class...Is there ever a place for read-alouds in the classroom?<BR/><BR/><I>And, finally let's use the reality check to see how inflates those scores really are: Fourth grade NAEP reading scores for Washington: 33% proficient or better in 2003 and 36% in 2005. That's a nice little 45 point discrepancy.</I><BR/><BR/>To be fair, the NAEP and the WASL assess different skils. Further, is there any good reason to put <A HREF="http://ithoughtathink.blogspot.com/2006/12/proficiency-for-all-part-i-brief.html" REL="nofollow">all that much credence</A> into the NAEP?<BR/><BR/><I>What is it with teachers being so reluctant to be observed by management? They need to get over that real quick.</I><BR/><BR/>Management might not know what it is they're watching. Management might be where lousy ideas on how to teach reading are spawned. Management might be incompetent.<BR/><BR/>But you could have guessed at those answers, couldn't you?<BR/><BR/>And really, you basing your opinion of what goes on in this classroom from one article can be turned around to explain precisely why DI still languishes in the margins after all these years: teachers drawing conclusions based on misrepresentations and Chicken Little-ism.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01136112516250432897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-89993202232573317382007-03-07T18:06:00.000-05:002007-03-07T18:06:00.000-05:00This is so sad. I learned about foolishness this y...This is so sad. I learned about foolishness this year the hard way. I have to watch some idiot teachers ruin some kids because they believe they know more than many experienced educators. First of all they are arrogant to began with. Next they believe some stupid lies told to them by some idiotic college professors. Fools who NEVER, NEVER, NEVER sat foot in a REAL classroom for any REAL length of time. <BR/><BR/>Now we have foolish teachers in classrooms all over America being cute, calling themselves "using balanced literacy." Whole language is a joke. I have students, who after being at this public school for four years, still cannot decode words. <BR/><BR/>Please, for the love of humanity, stop the games and gimmicks. It is hurting our children.<BR/><BR/>D-ED is so right. They love the games and gimmicks because they get to do what they want to do. They don't really have to work if they kids are doing "cooperative learning" or "projects." Saying cutesy catchphrases and dancing around with posters is not teaching reading. Stop it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-60841147874030720142007-03-07T17:38:00.000-05:002007-03-07T17:38:00.000-05:00"The problem with read-alouds is pretty clear. Dur..."The problem with read-alouds is pretty clear. During the read-aloud the student isn't actually reading! And what second grade students need to be doing more than anything else is practicing reading."<BR/><BR/>Exactly right! Students need to be active readers and receive immediate feedback.<BR/><BR/>It's odd that the same crowd that keeps talking about "active" learning insists on passive "reading". I'ts sacred dogma in ed school that pupils should not read aloud round robin style or by being picked at random.<BR/><BR/>I personally know of a case where sixth graders were being read to with a program called Making Meaning (I suppose it is a translation of constructing meaning). Since it is a commercially available programs I am sure it's happening elsewhere, too.Instructivisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01652458042291988959noreply@blogger.com