tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post4232911081021883079..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Duncan: More Class Time and More ChoiceKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-36293761070988981262009-09-08T15:28:14.168-04:002009-09-08T15:28:14.168-04:00My thought: more class time = less time for Kumon ...My thought: more class time = less time for Kumon and/or other tutors that correct the mistakes of our educational system<br /><br />ariAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-22775106711407341302009-04-15T10:58:00.000-04:002009-04-15T10:58:00.000-04:00Parry Graham - given the number of prejudices and ...Parry Graham - given the number of prejudices and plain weird beliefs I have had to try to excise from my brain, if I naturally agreed with you that would provide an excellent reason for doubting yourself on Bayesian grounds alone. <br />Or in other words, I don't trust my natural instincts.Tracy Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08999246551652981965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-5745815498516404682009-04-14T19:54:00.000-04:002009-04-14T19:54:00.000-04:00Malcolm,
I think you and I have very different de...Malcolm,<br /><br />I think you and I have very different definitions about what constitutes persuasive evidence.<br /><br />ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-84854961704694816902009-04-14T17:21:00.000-04:002009-04-14T17:21:00.000-04:00"Actually"?!?
Why not "naturally", Tracy?
Parry..."Actually"?!? <br /><br />Why not "naturally", Tracy?<br /><br />ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-33678796502347711582009-04-14T07:00:00.000-04:002009-04-14T07:00:00.000-04:00I'm with Parry Graham on this one actually. I have...I'm with Parry Graham on this one actually. I have my doubts about the effectiveness of competition in improving information about schools. There are already a lot of private schools but for anecdotal reasons I am skeptical about how much better they are than state schools on average. For example, two weeks into the start of intermediate school (age 11) one of my Mum's friends, with a son my age, hauled him out of his private school and dispatched him to the state school I was attending, having to buy a new uniform and losing a term's fees, because he was being so badly bullied at the private one. At university the ex-private school students never struck me as better educated than us ex-state ones. Another example, another one of my mum's friends got a call from the local primary state school (low SES area) her daughter was attending saying "Your daughter has a reading problem". Mother went "oh my god" and immediately hauled daughter out of that school and into a private one. Two years later private school called her "Your daughter has a reading problem". It had taken them two years to get to the stage that the state school was already at. <br />And I have never run across any research showing that private schools on average do better than state schools, indeed if anything the opposite. See for example http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/privateeducation/Private-schoolsare-they-worth-it.2370284.jp (for some reason Brits call private schools public schools). <br /><br />Of course this is only a statement about average schools, it may be that a particular private school does much better than the average, and I am not criticising any specific parents' decision to send their kids to private school - they may very well be in a situation where the private school is clearly the better option. Just the figures imply that many parents who privately-educate their kids aren't getting much educational gain from their money. (Of course they may well be getting gains from their kids associating with rich kids' offspring, and boasting rights like a new sports car but less obvious). <br /><br />Despite all this I favour school choice because the ability to get a kid out of a situation where they are being bullied can be literally life-saving. But the shoddy performance of private schools on average strikes me as an argument not to expect much from school choice.Tracy Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08999246551652981965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-20587727314447320012009-04-12T17:06:00.000-04:002009-04-12T17:06:00.000-04:00Parry, go hereParry, go <A HREF="http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/42197/20070526-0000/jonjayray.batcave.net/berg.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-90658449351355044722009-04-10T19:38:00.000-04:002009-04-10T19:38:00.000-04:00(Parry): "Parents with less formal education will ...(Parry): "Parents with less formal education will place less emphasis on academic preparation, and more emphasis on vocational preparation, for their own children. Parents with more formal education will place more emphasis on academic preparation, and less emphasis on vocational preparation, for their own children. Given the incredibly strong correlation between levels of educational attainment and income in the US, wouldn't the situation you describe exacerbate class, wealth, and power disparities in society?"<BR/><BR/>I expect not, for several reasons. <BR/>1) Giving academics power over blue-collar parents is a formula for exacerbated differences in outcomes. <BR/>2) Much of the correlation between school attainment and income follows from the systematic rigging of the game by the paper-pushing class (occupational licensure, for example). <BR/>3) Most of the world's work does not require schooling, beyond basic literacy and numeracy. School beyond basic literacy and numeracy reduces lifetime earnings in two ways: (a) by raising the age at which people enter the workforce, and (b) by reducing on-the-job training.<BR/><BR/>You may be right. I would live with greater income inequality if it is freely chosen.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-89873445653488529502009-04-10T15:43:00.000-04:002009-04-10T15:43:00.000-04:00"Extending this thought further, I expect that the..."Extending this thought further, I expect that the weights which blue-collar parents, on the one hand, and academics, politicians, and bureaucrats, on the other, assign to reading and math, on the one hand, and vocational training, on the other, will differ systematically."<BR/><BR/>If I may read between the lines, could this not be rephrased: Parents with less formal education will place less emphasis on academic preparation, and more emphasis on vocational preparation, for their own children. Parents with more formal education will place more emphasis on academic preparation, and less emphasis on vocational preparation, for their own children.<BR/><BR/>Given the incredibly strong correlation between levels of educational attainment and income in the US, wouldn't the situation you describe exacerbate class, wealth, and power disparities in society?<BR/><BR/>ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-29398723443350948612009-04-10T15:03:00.000-04:002009-04-10T15:03:00.000-04:00)Malcolm): "The 'high quality information' most im...)Malcolm): "The 'high quality information' most important to the education industry originates with parents and only a market in education services uses it."<BR/>(Dick): "...There is no 'education industry'. There is no 'market in educational services'. And there is no 'body of high quality information' that originates with parents."<BR/><BR/>We had one tedious discussion related to Mr. Schutz's idiosyncratic use of "only". I won't enter another over the meaning of "industry" or "market". Some people sell home improvements. Rosetta Stone sells language instruction. I tutor Math. Looks like a market to me.<BR/><BR/>The information which originates with parents concerns the interests, abilities, and moods of individual children.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-4173212170325220272009-04-10T14:54:00.000-04:002009-04-10T14:54:00.000-04:00(Parry): "It is my understanding that, in order fo...(Parry): "It is my understanding that, in order for a competitive market to lead to improvements in the quality of goods and services, consumers must have access to accurate and reliable information about the relative quality of goods and services. If not, then there is no market pressure to improve quality."<BR/><BR/>Its a matter of degree. More or less competitive, more or less information, higher or lower quality of information.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-31238400757592236902009-04-10T14:43:00.000-04:002009-04-10T14:43:00.000-04:00(Parry): "Here is my assumption: That you believe ...(Parry): "Here is my assumption: That you believe that a competitive marketplace for elementary and secondary education would result in improvements in aggregate student learning. It may be that you do not believe that; for example, you may believe that a competitive marketplace would leave quality of learning untouched, but merely improve parent satisfaction."<BR/><BR/>Mostly A. A bit of B. Some of C. <BR/><BR/>A. I believe that policies which shift control of education away from suppliers (school districts) to individual parents and, as children age, to students themselves, will improve overall system performance as measured by standardized test scores of Reading and Math. <BR/><BR/>B. Parent control and later student control will enhance client satisfaction. <BR/><BR/>C. I had to add one large consideration: The services which parents, and later, students, will demand of an education provider may well not resemble the services which politicians and bureaucrats demand of subsidized educatiion providers. According to the authors of one of the chapters in <BR/>C. Eugene Steuerle, et. al<A HREF="http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/vouchers.htm" REL="nofollow">Vouchers and the Provision of Public Services</A> (Brookings, 2000), Math and Reading scores differ systematically between countries which subsidize parents' choices AND require administration of standardized tests of Reading and Math as a condition of participation in the voucher, on the one hand, and countries which subsidize options and do not require administration of standardized tests. I suppose that PISA or TIMSS supplied the data, and were required of schools in both categories. It appears that bureaucrats and parents assign different weights to Reading and Math fluency. <BR/><BR/>Extending this thought further, I expect that the weights which blue-collar parents, on the one hand, and academics, politicians, and bureaucrats, on the other, assign to reading and math, on the one hand, and vocational training, on the other, will differ systematically. <BR/><BR/>To the extent that measures of performance differ, I suggest that the difference implies the superiority of vouchers. Bureaucrats and politicians charge for delivery of a "service" which people do not want.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-923897420001009152009-04-10T14:01:00.000-04:002009-04-10T14:01:00.000-04:00Well, here I go again. But the kind of informatio...Well, here I go again. But the kind of information needed, not only by parents, but by government and citizenry is transparent information on the instructional accomplishments and the societal services being delivered by by individual schools and aggregated by superordinate administrative units. For starters, all parties would be satisfied with this information for reading and math.<BR/><BR/>The methodology for providing this information is very straightforward but very few people inside or outside EdLand are even will to entertain the notion of change of the status quo.<BR/><BR/>There are a few straws in the wind, however. Paul Barton, formerly of ETS has an insightful guest editorial on Checker Finn's blog, derived from his longer paper, “Failing” or “Succeeding” Schools: How Can We Tell?"<BR/><BR/>http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/downloads/teachers/101006FailingorSucceeding.pdf.pdf<BR/><BR/>And Tony Bryk of the Carnegie Corp has his head screwed on right:<BR/><BR/>"Support a Science of Performance Improvement<BR/>Phi Delta Kappan, Vol. 90, No. 08 (April 2009): pp. 592-595.<BR/>By Anthony S. Bryk<BR/>We must reengineer both how we carry out educational R&D and the schools in which this work occurs if we want to achieve more productive ends. Education needs a Design, Educational Engineering, and Development infrastructure, which includes a rapid prototyping process by which researchers and practitioners co-develop innovations, try them in schools and other learning contexts, and then refine and try them again.(4pp.)"<BR/><BR/>The thing is, using well-developed instructional programs and sensitive indicators of instructional accomplishments, the only thing that differs is learning rate. It's not in SES, and it's not in the water. It's in the instruction.Dick Schutznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-45859406227891621382009-04-10T12:54:00.000-04:002009-04-10T12:54:00.000-04:00Ultimately, parry, that may be a problem.Those tha...Ultimately, parry, that may be a problem.<BR/><BR/>Those that need the best information are the least capable of getting and understanding it.<BR/><BR/>Also, what works for middle America isn't necessarily going to work for the lower end of the distribution. this would serve to increase the amount of misinformation out there.<BR/><BR/>Though there is some evidence that when these parents are given a real choice they are capable of making an informed decision. In Project Follow through, the DI model was the most popular model. Kipp schools are very popular.<BR/><BR/>The other solace is that I can't imagine a system worse than the one we have for these parents.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-19191498277695402382009-04-10T12:26:00.000-04:002009-04-10T12:26:00.000-04:00Ken,I don't disagree with you. I think that, in an...Ken,<BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with you. I think that, in an enlarged competitive market for K-12 education, more information would become available. The mental stumbling block for me is, would that information be accurate and reliable, and would the competitive environment (and the resulting information) actually lead to improvements in student learning at the aggregate level?<BR/><BR/>I go back to one of the initial points that you made in your post: "The measures for measuring the relative merits of instructional are few and far between, not widely used and/or made publicly available, and are population dependent."<BR/><BR/>How would a third-party reliably and accurately measure whether the quality of learning in School X was better than in School Y? Isn't that the kind of information that would need to be available for a competitive market to lead to improvements in aggregate student learning?<BR/><BR/>ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-59997187939192995362009-04-10T12:12:00.000-04:002009-04-10T12:12:00.000-04:00The point is that if there were a competitive mark...The point is that <B>if there were</B> a competitive market in k-12 education, which there isn't now, then there will be a demand for information related to education services. Once there is a demand, onwe or more entities will step up and supply those services.<BR/><BR/>With respect to the Philly study, pritizing the management of a few schools and keeping many of the existing rules and regulations intact does not a market make.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-65145422715774649952009-04-10T12:00:00.000-04:002009-04-10T12:00:00.000-04:00Malcolm,I'm not sure you really addressed my quest...Malcolm,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure you really addressed my question. But I think I may be making an assumption, and I'm not sure it's warranted. Here is my assumption: That you believe that a competitive marketplace for elementary and secondary education would result in improvements in aggregate student learning. It may be that you do not believe that; for example, you may believe that a competitive marketplace would leave quality of learning untouched, but merely improve parent satisfaction.<BR/><BR/>But if you do believe that a competitive marketplace would result in improvements to aggregate student learning, then my earlier question remains.<BR/><BR/>It is my understanding that, in order for a competitive market to lead to improvements in the quality of goods and services, consumers must have access to accurate and reliable information about the relative quality of goods and services. If not, then there is no market pressure to improve quality. In other words, if I want to buy a car, I have access to plenty of third-party information that helps me understand different cars' reliability ratings, safety ratings, fuel economy, horsepower, etc. This leads to market pressure to improve reliability, safety, fuel economy, etc. But if I don't have access to that kind of information, then I'm as likely to buy a lemon as not.<BR/><BR/>So do you believe that a competitive market in education would lead to more accurate and reliable information? How? What would be the key pieces of information that would be used by parents in making educational decisions? What other service industries could you point to that provide accurate and reliable information, readily available to consumers, and that might serve as a model of how a private market in education might work?<BR/><BR/>ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-3307217885252094832009-04-10T11:51:00.000-04:002009-04-10T11:51:00.000-04:00'The "high quality information" most important to ...'The "high quality information" most important to the education industry originates with parents and only a market in education services uses it.'<BR/><BR/>This is fatuous. There is no "education industry. There is no "market in educational services" And there is no "body of high quality information that originates with parents."<BR/><BR/>Have you been rebooted?<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile back at the ranch, here's another datum, flagged by Alexander Russo, for charterists/vouncherists to chew on:<BR/><BR/>"Study: District-run Phila. schools top manager-run ones"<BR/><BR/>http://www.philly.com/inquirer/education/20090409_Study__District-run_Phila__schools_top_manager-run_ones.htm<BR/><BR/>It's not in the Charter, and it's not in the water. It's in the instruction.Dick Schutznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-15975826720067534912009-04-10T08:08:00.000-04:002009-04-10T08:08:00.000-04:00(Parry): "If I need to pick a doctor or a hospital...(Parry): "If I need to pick a doctor or a hospital, or if I need to pick a lawyer, is there good comparative information out there to help me make a decision? These are both robust private-industry service markets, and I'm not aware of good, accessible information available to help a consumer pick a high-quality choice....So why do you think a better information system would arise in education? What kind of information would it include?...Why would good information be available -- wouldn't it be more about marketing than third-party evaluations?<BR/>"<BR/><BR/>I should probably ponder this a while, but what the hell...<BR/> <BR/>"Good" relative to what? "Better" than what? Is not electoral politics "marketing"? The main purpose of "expertise" (certification) in the education industry is advertisement (marketing). This marketing serves to sell the policy of surrender to the State-monopoly school system. Whole Language would not have occurred to any normal person. <BR/><BR/>Neither health care nor education looks like a likely candidate for State operation. Both industries are highly sensitive to local conditions and education especially has little useful abstract expertise. <BR/><BR/>I finally got around to reading <A HREF="http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/hykKnw1.html" REL="nofollow">Hayek, "The Use of Knowledge in Society"</A>.<BR/><BR/>"If it is fashionable today to minimize the importance of the knowledge of the particular circumstances of time and place, this is closely connected with the smaller importance which is now attached to change as such. Indeed, there are few points on which the assumptions made (usually only implicitly) by the 'planners' differ from those of their opponents as much as with regard to the significance and frequency of changes which will make substantial alterations of production plans necessary. Of course, if detailed economic plans could be laid down for fairly long periods in advance and then closely adhered to, so that no further economic decisions of importance would be required, the task of drawing up a comprehensive plan governing all economic activity would be much less formidable." <BR/><BR/>The "high quality information" most important to the education industry <I>originates</I> with parents and only a market in education services uses it.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-9041051395490279272009-04-09T20:20:00.000-04:002009-04-09T20:20:00.000-04:00Malcolm said: "Improvement is a function of inform...Malcolm said: "Improvement is a function of information. A market in education services would generate more information than the current State-monopoly system generates."<BR/><BR/>I find the first sentence of this statement very insightful. I find the second statement fascinating.<BR/><BR/>Why do you think a market in education services would generate more information? And, in my opinion, it would need to not just be more information, but higher quality and more easily accessible information.<BR/><BR/>When I look at other service industries that appeal to a broad range of consumers, I don't necessarily see that being the case. Two examples that come immediately to my mind are healthcare and legal services. If I need to pick a doctor or a hospital, or if I need to pick a lawyer, is there good comparative information out there to help me make a decision? These are both robust private-industry service markets, and I'm not aware of good, accessible information available to help a consumer pick a high-quality choice. Heck, that's why plaintiff's attorneys advertise on the back of the yellow pages.<BR/><BR/>So why do you think a better information system would arise in education? What kind of information would it include? Why would good information be available -- wouldn't it be more about marketing than third-party evaluations?<BR/><BR/>ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1758208555839532892009-04-09T19:41:00.000-04:002009-04-09T19:41:00.000-04:00(Parry): "Should people who live in gated communit...(Parry): "Should people who live in gated communities with a guard and guardhouse be allowed to receive a reimbursement for part of their tax money that goes to pay police in their town...?"<BR/><BR/>Dunno what you mean by "should". <BR/><BR/>Suppose some court were to order your city's police department to provide individual, 24/7/365 security to a controversial figure (a Madilyn Murray O'Hare, say). Suppose the city estimated the cost of this security at 3 x $70,000/year. Suppose the figure offered to hire a bodyguard and relieve the city of its obligation, for some amount less than $210,000. "Should" the city accept the deal? <BR/><BR/>(Parry): "May I receive a reimbursement on my tax money that goes to the fire department if I agree to personally take care of any fires that happen in my house?"<BR/><BR/>If legislators could rig the tax code to encourage construction with non-combustable material, why not do that? A property tax credit for installed fire-fighting equipment would amount to "reimbursement if...I agree to take care of any fires...in my house." <BR/><BR/>(Parry): "If most schools (public, charter, private) currently look pretty similar instructionally, what instructional differences would we expect to begin see with increased choice?"<BR/><BR/>That we cannot know the answers in advance is one argument for experiment. I can suggest areas for improvement:<BR/>1) tailoring curricula to individuals, both in subject area and pace and method of instruction.<BR/>2) Follow-up, with career help for graduates. <BR/>3) Separation of instruction from credentialing. It is a conflict of interest for teachers to grade their own students. <BR/><BR/>(Parry): "If 'the measures for measuring the relative merits of instruction are few and far between', how will parents make sound decisions about where to send their children for education?"<BR/><BR/>This objection applies with greater force to voters choosing politicians who choose processes which select bureaucrats who choose where to send children whom they do not know. <BR/><BR/>(Parry): "Doesn't an effective competitive marketplace require a higher level of consumer knowledge about product quality than you have suggested currently exists?"<BR/><BR/>Improvement is a function of information. A market in education services would generate more information than the current State-monopoly system generates.Malcolm Kirkpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294436437292859972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-45588829855749490842009-04-09T17:53:00.000-04:002009-04-09T17:53:00.000-04:00Parry, I would think that those gated communities ...Parry, I would think that those gated communities also receive public police services which they continue to recieve. I also don't see why you shouldn't be able to opt-out of any non-essential governmental service.<BR/><BR/>I would expect to see more educational services being offered based on consumer desires. More efforts would be directed to pleasing parents/students than in the current system.<BR/><BR/>This is a chicken and egg problem. Those services will arise, like they do in other industries (e.g., consumer reports, and other publications that help consumers pick products) once there is a need for them.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-83218924309391857112009-04-09T17:29:00.000-04:002009-04-09T17:29:00.000-04:00A few questions.Should people who live in gated co...A few questions.<BR/><BR/>Should people who live in gated communities with a guard and guardhouse be allowed to receive a reimbursement for part of their tax money that goes to pay police in their town, since they are paying for their own private security? May I receive a reimbursement on my tax money that goes to the fire department if I agree to personally take care of any fires that happen in my house?<BR/><BR/>If most schools (public, charter, private) currently look pretty similar instructionally, what instructional differences would we expect to begin see with increased choice?<BR/><BR/>If "the measures for measuring the relative merits of instruction are few and far between", how will parents make sound decisions about where to send their children for education? Doesn't an effective competitive marketplace require a higher level of consumer knowledge about product quality than you have suggested currently exists?<BR/><BR/>ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-74067004816598941942009-04-09T15:57:00.000-04:002009-04-09T15:57:00.000-04:00I'd be the first to agree that there are inequitie...I'd be the first to agree that there are inequities for middle class Moms--whether working or not. Tax credit for homeschooling is as fanciful as "rebooting" or "reform" so it's hardly worth talking about.<BR/><BR/>Certainly, if you have a choice between being rich or poor, choose rich. But as far as instructional accomplishments are concerned, poverty is anything but a show-stopper. With very few exceptions kids enter the Kindergarten with adequate prerequisites to be taught to read, compute, and attain other academic accomplishments. That social class on Day 1 is highly predictive of kids academic standing in Grade 8 (which is as far as ECLS-K) has gone, and in every preceding grade indicates that it's not in the kids and it's not in the water. It's in the instruction.<BR/><BR/>But the characteristics of texts and tests are disregarded (some of present company and a few others excepted). Teacher ed institutions, teacher unions, and publishers have combined to convince everyone "the important consideration is the teacher. Aa 'good teacher' can make any 'program' work. The teacher's job is to adjust instruction to meet each student's needs." The belief system gives each teacher license to mis-instruct and lets all other parties off the hook for the toxic instruction.Dick Schutznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-73134329470652788812009-04-09T15:12:00.000-04:002009-04-09T15:12:00.000-04:00Dick: I was just saying that if a woman isn't work...Dick: I was just saying that if a woman isn't working and can't get a job (or doesn't want one), it's easier to have additional children than it would be for a mother who is working full-time. Middle-class working mothers have to pay for childcare out of their own pocket. Low-income working mothers may qualify for government subsidized daycare, and non-working mothers don't require day care.<BR/><BR/>My understanding is that highly educated women have fewer children than women with less education. I further assume that income follows education, so that richer women would have fewer kids than poorer women. I'd also posit that children of mothers with lower income and lower levels of education are less likely to turn into productive citizens and more likely to become involved in gangs and crime (and cost society in both dollars and safety).<BR/><BR/>As a professional woman, I would simply personally prefer that the government and/or businesses make it easier for middle class women to afford to have children. As it stands, other than the public schools, we don't get much help. As a society, you would think this would be something we'd want to encourage. A homeschooling tax credit wouldn't help us much.Attorney DCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-12826871948998880992009-04-09T14:31:00.000-04:002009-04-09T14:31:00.000-04:00"By providing free public schools (but little else..."By providing free public schools (but little else) the government seems to have helped create an America in which low-income, less-educated Americans (who may not be working at all) have more children"<BR/><BR/>So (more or less) free public schools are responsible for differential birth rates? I'd say that "faith-based" religion is more responsible both for the difference and for a hefty proportion of private schools that voucherists/charterists want to subsidize. <BR/><BR/>Did you ever entertain the notion that the reason some people aren't working is that there aren't jobs?Dick Schutznoreply@blogger.com