tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post8315656912677866696..comments2024-03-02T15:23:18.091-05:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Acquiring KnowledgeKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-87168783234239766902009-10-08T04:01:38.144-04:002009-10-08T04:01:38.144-04:00Stephen Downes, I asked you before in a comment on...Stephen Downes, I asked you before in a comment on one of Ken's posts if there is any evidence that could convince you that content knowledge is necessary for thinking. I suppose I was too late and you were no longer reading the thread, I'll try again here, running the risk of course that you might no longer be following the thread.<br /><br />Is there any evdiecne that could convince you that content knowledge might be necessary for reading and critical thinking?Tracy Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08999246551652981965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-82793745958506711142009-10-07T08:29:29.916-04:002009-10-07T08:29:29.916-04:00Well, it's all rhetorical reified- abstraction...Well, it's all rhetorical reified- abstractions rather than "semantics," but your characterization NCTM's treatment of the matter is apt.<br /><br />The thing is, the instruction that would be involved in delivering the aspiration is a very tall order. The instructional time involved is huge. It's very questionable whether the cake would be worth all the ingredients. <br /><br />Meanwhile, NCTM would have teachers and kids chasing "numeric reasoning," "graphical reasoning," and "algebraic reasoning."Dick Schutzhttp://ssrn.com/author=1199505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-38256101386526766562009-10-06T17:38:46.506-04:002009-10-06T17:38:46.506-04:00I like the way the reasoning with functions excerp...I like the way the reasoning with functions excerpt claims that there are "numeric reasoning," "graphical reasoning," and "algebraic reasoning" supposedly being used and developed in the examples.<br /><br />What they really mean is that the student must know the underlying content knowledge, such as certain domain specific procedures, concepts, rules, and facts, and recognize how the example problems fit into one or more areas of the knowledge already known by the student. Then the student must apply deductive and/or inductive reasoning to find whatever answer is sought.<br /><br />It's all semantics. I'd characterize it as follows: building content knowledge via the most indirect and obscure route possible in a vain attempt to appear as though content knowledge isn't been learned. There's some hyperbole in that definition, but not much.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-30023658667394164652009-10-06T17:09:39.166-04:002009-10-06T17:09:39.166-04:00Ken says, "it's so easy to make sense and...Ken says, "it's so easy to make sense and reason in high school math without knowing the underlying content knowledge."<br /><br />That is evident in reading the sample Chapter 6 "Reasoning with Functions" and the topics in chapter on "Reasoning with Statistics."<br /><br />The math-ed folks have acquired the underlying content knowledge, and they presume that kids who lack their information will view the instruction the same way the experts do. This error has been made over and over again since the "new math" of the 1960's. <br /><br />I thought the Math Advisory Panel's report last year provided a good foundation to build on. But all of that has been dismissed by the "21st Century," "Core Standards," and NCTM camps. Not "Change We Can Believe In"--Not even change. Just aspirational-driven persistent commitment to failed instruction.Dick Schutzhttp://ssrn.com/author=1199505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-45465580998438746242009-10-06T17:01:27.926-04:002009-10-06T17:01:27.926-04:00The NCTM book presents a common theme in its unwav...The NCTM book presents a common theme in its unwavering advocacy of constructivism. The desire is to teach high order concepts without first providing a encompassing definition of the concept. Instead it leaps directly to having the students come up with examples from which the student must derive the general idea that is hopefully embedded in the examples.<br /><br />If there is an asdvantage to teaching this way, it's neer been demonstarted to exist for novice learners. Also, it heightens the risk that the learner does not learn the general idea.<br /><br />What ultimately is learned is simply content knowledge and there are many ways to teach that effectively. If anyone can explain how this excerise enhances reasoning ability, I'd like to hear it.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-78585697591449707582009-10-06T16:41:11.686-04:002009-10-06T16:41:11.686-04:00Dick, and they wonder where we get the idea that &...Dick, and they wonder where we get the idea that "content knowledge" gets short shrift from the 21st Century folks. Because it's so easy to make sense and reason in high school math without knowing the underlying content knowledge.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-85808321705649362232009-10-06T16:34:37.708-04:002009-10-06T16:34:37.708-04:00I thought there was some value-added from this pos...I thought there was some value-added from this post, not just a mere repeat.<br /><br />The example clearly shows the interplay of general reasoning and content knowledge, not just the mere recall of facts.<br /><br />I also used it as a stepping stone to show that knowledge is more than just a collection of facts. I also wanted to get across the point that a knowledge connection can be known and yet the nodes of the connection may not have been retained. (I'm not sure that point came across in the final version.) For example, a learner might learn a fact-based definition, yet not remember the definition, but still retain the knowledge that enable him to discriminate examples and non-examples of the definition.<br /><br />So, the point is not merely to repeat or to convince you necessarily. often it merely advances the argument in small way and might merely lay the foundation for a better argument down the road.<br /><br />Often it's merely a way for me to work through the argument in a different way and to get some feedback from critics. The exercise at a minimum often clarifies my understanding. That is the value of a blog.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-26326344469026912562009-10-06T16:29:26.975-04:002009-10-06T16:29:26.975-04:00Yikes! The National Council of Teachers of Mathem...Yikes! The National Council of Teachers of Mathematics has a new publication, "Focus in High School Mathematics: Reasoning and Sense Making."<br /><br />www.nctm.org/standards/content.aspx?id=23749<br /><br />You have to buy the book at a hefty $34.95 for non-members. But it's clear from the blurbs and sample copy that the NCTM views reasoning and sense-making as teachable. That NCTM clings to this view when many kids aren't being taught the rudiments of arithmetic represents proof that reasoning and sense-making are in short supply in NCTM.Dick Schutzhttp://ssrn.com/author=1199505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-88037928071922887392009-10-06T16:04:48.138-04:002009-10-06T16:04:48.138-04:00If I'm being pedantic, it's because you...If I'm being pedantic, it's because you're just repeating the same basic argument over and over. What's the point of that?Stephen Downeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06140591903467372209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-58546354627518311552009-10-06T16:00:56.506-04:002009-10-06T16:00:56.506-04:00You're being pedantic now, Stephen.
I wrote &...You're being pedantic now, Stephen.<br /><br />I wrote "answering questions" because that's what Pondiscio's example required as the demonstration of the reader's knowledge. I also alluded to this when I wrote "You need to know the relevant baseball content knowledge. And, you need to <b>know some declarative facts about baseball to answer</b> some of the questions."<br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by "a trivial, stunted version of knowledge." Knowing the declarative fact(s) required to demonstrate one's knowledge to others is often an important part of the person's knowledge base. Not knowing the declarative fact often means that the reader doesn't knw the relevant content knowledge. In the instant example, the declarative facts needed to answer the questions are trivial if the reader possess the unerlying content knowledge. (3 answers require a number as the answer; only one requires knowing a fact.)<br /><br />There are some who are enamored with their own theories of knowledge that simply ignor all evidence and are beyond convincing.<br /><br />In a world with many suitable examples that can be classified differently the expression "type of example" is an accurate descriptor.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-92121503749650247942009-10-06T15:50:24.844-04:002009-10-06T15:50:24.844-04:00I can't find anything to disagree with here! (...I can't find anything to disagree with here! (sorta a new experience).<br /><br />But your points can be extended per Russell Ackoff, in his recent book with Dan Greenberg, "Turning Learning Right Side":<br /><br />"An ounce of information is worth a pound of data.<br /><br />"An ounce of knowledge is worth a pound of information.<br /><br />"An ounce of understanding is worth a pound of knowledge.<br /><br />"An ounce of wisdom is worth a pound of understanding."<br /><br />"Data consist of symbols that represent the properties of objects and events. . .<br /><br />"Information consists of data that has been processed to make it useful. . .<br /><br />"Knowledge consists of answers to 'how to' questions; it is contained in 'instructions.' To say that New York is 92 miles to the north and slightly east of Philadelphia is to provide information. To say that one can get from one to the other easily by car using the Pennsylvania and New Jersey turnpikes is to instruct; to provide knowledge--'how to' get from one place to another.<br /><br />"'Understanding'is contained in 'explanations, answers to 'why questions'. . . Explanations consist of the 'reasons' for behavior or properties. Reasons are of two types, retrospective and prospective: identifying what produced the behavior or properties to be explained, or what that which is to be explained is intended to produce. . .To say that a boy is going to the store because his mother sent him is a retrospective explanation. To say that he is going to the store to buy food for dinner is a prospective explanation.<br /><br />"'Wisdom' is qualitatively different from [the above]. . . It is captured in Peter Drucker's distinction between doing things right (efficiency) and doing the right thing (effectiveness).<br /><br />"Wisdom is not something that can be taught in a course (or even in through the lectures of a person we acknowledge to be wise). . .To be wise is to own wisdom, as yours, not as someone else's, and to do that one must constantly be faced with situations that call for the practice and application of wisdom--in school, at work, and throughout life."Dick Schutzhttp://ssrn.com/author=1199505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-36899490366877105992009-10-06T15:18:59.502-04:002009-10-06T15:18:59.502-04:00When you represent 'knowledge' as 'ans...When you represent 'knowledge' as 'answering questions' you get a trivial, stunted version of knowledge.<br /><br />And it's funny, how you just repeat this same sort of example, over and over and over - as though it might convince some of the people who were not convinced the last time you used this type of example.<br /><br />Of course - you're fact driven - so 'type of example' is an example of that fuzzy critical reasoning you dislike to.Stephen Downeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06140591903467372209noreply@blogger.com