tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post114916889204803810..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Education Research StinksKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149730376792802862006-06-07T21:32:00.000-04:002006-06-07T21:32:00.000-04:00What if you spend $5 implementing a program that a...<I>What if you spend $5 implementing a program that affects 100 kids? Then if you get an average effect size of 0.01 sd you have a cost effective program.</I><BR/><BR/>I'd characterize it more as an educator's choice between things that cost and perform pretty much the same. In the real world, programs are not mutually exclusive and effect sizes aren't stackable.<BR/><BR/>Let's say this school needs to improve by .20 SD and decides to implement 10 different programs having effect sizes of .02. and each costing $10. What's the chance that the school will see a combined .20 effect size or a .10 effect size for that matter? Probably zero, but the $100 will still be gone. What is really lost is the opportunity to have done something different, something more effective.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149691988055526532006-06-07T10:53:00.000-04:002006-06-07T10:53:00.000-04:00Hi Ed Researcher.Everything has an opportunity cos...Hi Ed Researcher.<BR/><BR/>Everything has an opportunity cost. If a school wants to implement x this will probably prevent them from implementing y. If x is more effective than y, than you'd favor implementing x. But if the predicted effect size of x is small, you're probably not going to want to implement x either. You'll want to save your resources until you find z which has a larger effect size.<BR/><BR/>As I point out in a later post, the typical Title I school needs to improve performance by about 0.84 sd to perform like a mainstream school. This is a large effect size. It's unlikely that schools will stumble upon the right mix of small size interventions that will add up to such a large effect size. Better to pick the intevention that's close to what you need.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149527870046213542006-06-05T13:17:00.000-04:002006-06-05T13:17:00.000-04:00kderosa,I'm interested in rule to live by #2. Can...kderosa,<BR/><BR/>I'm interested in rule to live by #2. <BR/><BR/>Can you point out a few studies that show reforms or conditions that produce an effect size large enough to meet your criterion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149259116521001572006-06-02T10:38:00.000-04:002006-06-02T10:38:00.000-04:00"Experience is not the only thing, but it IS an es..."Experience is not the only thing, but it IS an essential factor."<BR/><BR/>I need to be more specific. Schools must be able to deal with teachers at all experience levels. Curricula and teaching methods can make this problem better or worse.<BR/><BR/>Schools cannot use lack of experience as an excuse. Many progressive teaching ideas (thematic coverage, teacher as guide on the side, full-inclusion, child-centered mixed ability group learning) require a much higher degree of teacher experience to be effective, if at all. My complaint is that schools implement techniques like differentiated instruction with only a fuzzy plan on how they will work. At best, schools ask for more money for teacher training in the hope that sometime in the future, everything will work out.<BR/><BR/>Experience and effective teaching are not the only things, but most schools don't want to talk about anything else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149221635083403492006-06-02T00:13:00.000-04:002006-06-02T00:13:00.000-04:00Thank you, Kderosa. I think we have reached commo...Thank you, Kderosa. I think we have reached common ground!<BR/><BR/>Steveh, I don't believe I ever implied that it was only experience that made a good teacher. I would, however, suggest that it takes any teacher a few years to come into his/her own. That is why in my state we are only "initially licensed" the first 3 years.<BR/><BR/>College graduates can only run classrooms so well. No amount of student teaching can FULLY prepare one for running one's OWN classes. Experience is not the only thing, but it IS an essential factor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149217174441274982006-06-01T22:59:00.000-04:002006-06-01T22:59:00.000-04:00"But just where are the magical "effective teacher..."But just where are the magical "effective teachers" going to come from?"<BR/><BR/>Can you define and calibrate "effective" for me? One should make a distinction between inexperienced, incompetent, lazy, and just plain bad. Schools can and should bring inexperienced teachers up-to-speed quickly. Unfortunately, many ed school grads need a whole lot of help beyond the opinion-based pedagogy they learned in school. Being an effective teacher starts in school and does not require only experience or polyjuice. Parents should be able to expect a certain level of competence from a college graduate.<BR/><BR/>I have also heard the argument that public schools can be fine if you get the "good" teachers. They weren't talking about experience here. Some of the teachers with the highest seniority were the worst. One of our public schools couldn't get rid of a bad teacher, so they had to distribute his poor teaching across all of the kids so it wasn't concentrated on just a few.<BR/><BR/>However, this "effective" teacher solution to fixing schools hides the fact that one of the reasons that some teachers are effective is that they (try to) make up for bad curricula. This only goes so far.<BR/><BR/>You will have far more "effective" teachers with a proper curriculum and teaching methods. Effectiveness is more than just experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149196468075079502006-06-01T17:14:00.000-04:002006-06-01T17:14:00.000-04:00Hi Laura.That's why I stopped quoting the article ...Hi Laura.<BR/><BR/>That's why I stopped quoting the article where I did. I disagreed with the rest of the conclusions drawn for many of the same reasons you point out.<BR/><BR/>The idea is to start using what we know works and improving upon those methods, not looking for great teachers. The teacher is only one important part in the scheme of education. There are many other components that must also be present.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149195689675160542006-06-01T17:01:00.000-04:002006-06-01T17:01:00.000-04:00Here's where our dilemma lies, though:"Apparently,...Here's where our dilemma lies, though:<BR/><BR/>"Apparently, that's just what schools fear, a flood of active parents armed with data showing that Ms. X raises test scores year after year and Mr. Y does not. Because that would force schools to do something about Mr. Y— either offer him professional development or suggest a career change."<BR/><BR/>We can get rid of Mr. Y., but then we're a teacher short. Where are we going to find another Ms. X. to replace Mr. Y.? The supply is short, my friend.<BR/><BR/>Okay, so let's say we'll seek to make Y an X. How do we do that? We study exactly HOW X gets those results and attempt to duplicate her methods. That's what all of these ill-researched theories are supposed to do. We can't simply bottle "essence of X" or previous experience. We have to pick apart her methods and see what she does that causes her to get consistently better scores, or, have her teaching entire grade levels, which, surely, you know would not work.<BR/><BR/>"No reform will revitalize public education until schools stop protecting ineffective teachers and start rewarding effective ones. Parents have the right and the responsibility to try to get their kids in the classes of the teachers with proven skills."<BR/><BR/>But just where are the magical "effective teachers" going to come from? They come from theories, misguided or not. That's how skills are gained, forming and re-forming theories plus experience. I bet even Ms. X. didn't ALWAYS have previous good scores to point to. Unless the contention is that good teachers are born and not made. Then we are hopelessly lost.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1149181816202091862006-06-01T13:10:00.000-04:002006-06-01T13:10:00.000-04:00Many education researchers are really just after-t...Many education researchers are really just after-the-fact validators. You have to follow the money.<BR/><BR/>Even statistically valid results may not be useful if the assumptions are all wrong. Supplemented Everyday Math might show real improvement (over what?), but won't get the kids to a proper course in algebra in 8th grade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com