tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post116001763320376854..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Moving the Goal PostsKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160501328587007792006-10-10T13:28:00.000-04:002006-10-10T13:28:00.000-04:00Massparent, NCLB only requires the proficiency of...Massparent, NCLB only requires the proficiency of the students required to be tested. Currently, 1% can take an alternative assessment. and up to 5% can be expemted due to absence.<BR/><BR/>To understand just how fair Mass's exam is, you'd need to evaluate what actual grade level is being tested in each grade and where is the cut point set for a passing grade.<BR/><BR/>For example, the math portion of the 8th grade NAEP exam has questions that are mostly drawn from material that should have been learned in grades 1-5. Even if Mass's test isof a similar difficulty level (it is doubtful it is more difficult), it is likely that they've set the cut-point sufficiently low so that many more of its students pass than pass the NAEP exam.<BR/><BR/>The reality is most likely that the Mass exam only requires studenst to be proficient at a level far below actual grade level.<BR/><BR/>This is the general rule; it's possible that Mass is the exception.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160496460967680432006-10-10T12:07:00.000-04:002006-10-10T12:07:00.000-04:00NCLB requires that the goal posts move every year,...NCLB requires that the goal posts move every year, until every school arrives at the same end-point in 2014 - 100% proficiency.<BR/><BR/>Here in Massachusetts, the definition of proficiency and our scoring system mean that every school will have to match the test scores posted by Boston Latin Academy last year.<BR/><BR/>Boston Latin is an exam school, and only lets in the highest scoring kids in the city. It was one of only a few schools across the state that came close to scoring 100% on the AYP proficiency scale last year.<BR/><BR/>A few percent more might squeak by because the state allows an error margin of 2.5 to 4.5 percent, that shifts the mandate from "100%" down to "95.5 to 98.5%" proficient. Still cuts out all but about 2% of subgroups across the state; the combinatorial reaper (all subgroups must pass both the ELA and MATH threshold) would narrow that down a lot more.<BR/><BR/>Massachusett's chosen standards reek of a lack of ability to comprehend the math and statistics implied when requiring 100% of students to score at the "proficient" MCAS level. The choices simply could not have been made by competent mathematical and statistical reasoning.<BR/><BR/>That leaves the only logical conclusions:<BR/><BR/>a) The Mass Department of Education wanted a scoring system that would label the majority of schools as inadequate, or<BR/><BR/>b) The Mass Department of Education does not have competent statisticians able to model how their scoring system works in the context of No Child Left Behind proficiency mandate.MassParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07146102995122011221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160392754901348422006-10-09T07:19:00.000-04:002006-10-09T07:19:00.000-04:00"Higher skills can be measured by means other than..."Higher skills can be measured by means other than multiple choice testing, but it seldom is done that way."<BR/><BR/>You're going to have to define fairly specifically what you mean by higher skills.<BR/><BR/>"In my state, the tests attempt to measure writing skills by using extremely awkward and convoluted multiple choice questions. That is a problem -- and the one I stated in my comment."<BR/><BR/>That's odd. ETS has shown, in several studies, however, that grammar section scores -- which are tested with multiple choice questions -- strongly correlate both with reading scores AND writing scores. So you're correct in that you can't directly assess writing with multiple choice questions, but you can indirectly assess it with multiple choice questions.<BR/><BR/>Ideally, of course, you'd want to assess any skill directly, but there are practical considerations that could indicate an indirect assessment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160363064380813412006-10-08T23:04:00.000-04:002006-10-08T23:04:00.000-04:00"In my state, the tests attempt to measure writing..."In my state, the tests attempt to measure writing skills by using extremely awkward and convoluted multiple choice questions."<BR/><BR/>Actually, you said nothing about "convoluted" in your post.<BR/><BR/>This is an interesting process to see in our state. Let's see if I can explain what is happening. The federal government mandates (via NCLB) state testing. The state gets to choose the test. Our state's educational administration is given free reign to select the test. Having a fuzzy, progressive idea of education, they don't like testing, but they see the writing on the wall and want to be proactive. It's better that they select the test rather than someone else. Therefore the tests are very easy. However, they want to keep their mantle of champions of "higher-order thinking", so they select tests that include many questions that try, through perhaps "convoluted" logic to test for these qualities. Rather than just test for the easily-determined basic knowledge and skills and leave it at that, they try to find questions that see how kids are thinking. Of course, they can't really define what "higher-order thinking" is, so they are not going to succeed.<BR/><BR/>In any case, however many of these "convoluted" questions there are on the test, it still doesn't explain why the results on the tests are so incredibly bad. As a parent, standardized tests are meaningless to me because they are so simple. However, they are now the maximum goal that schools strive for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160362860974332602006-10-08T23:01:00.000-04:002006-10-08T23:01:00.000-04:00What I don't understand is that all the so-called ...What I don't understand is that all the so-called higher-order skills at the K-12 level are the basic skills at the undergrad level and they, for the most part, are easily testable with multiple choice questions.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160345885875180632006-10-08T18:18:00.000-04:002006-10-08T18:18:00.000-04:00Basic information (not skills such as writing) can...Basic information (not skills such as writing) can be measured by the multiple choice tests -- not a problem. Standardized tests have writing components -- of course, and again not a problem.<BR/><BR/>Higher skills <I>can</I> be measured by means other than multiple choice testing, but it seldom is done that way. <BR/><BR/>In my state, the tests attempt to measure writing skills by using extremely awkward and convoluted multiple choice questions. <I>That</I> is a problem -- and the one I stated in my comment.<BR/><BR/>Measuring skills, such as writing, with a tool that works for basic knowledge, such as multiple choice tests, is like measuring liquids with a linear measure. Yes, it can be done, but does it give an accurate and useful picture of what you have?grayciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13188392312385509613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160326575698595002006-10-08T12:56:00.000-04:002006-10-08T12:56:00.000-04:00This internet site is incredible. Its about a pipe...This internet site is incredible. Its about a pipe dream come in real to me. - <A HREF="http://www.1-contact-lens.com" REL="nofollow">contact lenses</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160308184180948432006-10-08T07:49:00.000-04:002006-10-08T07:49:00.000-04:00"I have yet to see a multiple choice test that can..."I have yet to see a multiple choice test that can meaningfully measure success in a skill such as writing."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you're unaware that standardized exams, such as the SAT, have essay components.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160277051320046812006-10-07T23:10:00.000-04:002006-10-07T23:10:00.000-04:00"The difficulty lies in the method used to measure..."The difficulty lies in the method used to measure success."<BR/><BR/>This doesn't mean it can't be done. There are perhaps two levels of testing. Testing for basic skills and knowledge can be done with simple tests. For more advanced skills, the evaluation becomes more difficult, but it still can and should be done. I assume that you have some specific criteria for pass/fail in your classes.<BR/><BR/>If you are talking about standardized tests, then I don't understand the problem. Are there some advanced knowledge and skills that would make it OK not to do well on the simple, perhaps multiple choice, tests?<BR/><BR/>This is not a problem in math, but you'd be surprised how many teachers complain how standardized tests can't check for "higher-level thinking". In other words, they think it's OK to fail the basics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160251569173988752006-10-07T16:06:00.000-04:002006-10-07T16:06:00.000-04:00In my case, I am interested in the product of my t...In my case, I <I>am</I> interested in the product of my teaching, and I <I>am</I> interested in the process I need to follow to get there. The difficulty lies in the method used to measure success. I have yet to see a multiple choice test that can meaningfully measure success in a skill such as writing.grayciehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13188392312385509613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160250028688436422006-10-07T15:40:00.000-04:002006-10-07T15:40:00.000-04:00I think it's less moving the goal posts than it is...I think it's less moving the goal posts than it is having no goal posts at all.rightwingprofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12419372059353408855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-1160063306933375382006-10-05T11:48:00.000-04:002006-10-05T11:48:00.000-04:00The problem I see is that many teachers view the p...The problem I see is that many teachers view the problems of education as what walks into their classroom. What are they supposed to do if kids come into their sixth grade classroom not knowing their times table? Parents properly see the problems as teacher effectiveness, school effectiveness, curriculum, and year-to-year standards. Many teachers are just trying to fix their own problems and do whatever they think is best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com