tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post5332334625450870281..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Schemo gets pwnedKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-54019735564533093802007-03-12T11:02:00.000-04:002007-03-12T11:02:00.000-04:00I believe the WRCT data from 2004-2005 sy is still...I believe the WRCT data from 2004-2005 sy is still comparable to the 1998-1999 data. Even so, the 2003-2004 data is similar.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-90659777022596568082007-03-12T10:25:00.000-04:002007-03-12T10:25:00.000-04:00The point should be made, that despite the numerou...The point should be made, that despite the numerous different ways of measuring data, Wisconsin still uses the current numbers to define the achievement gap and the proficiency of its students.<BR/><BR/>Even though their own numbers don't correspond with each other, none of their numbers have ever correlated with the one reference we have, which is the NAEP test.<BR/><BR/>Also one other note. The article uses data from the WRCT test which ended after 2005. The article states the test changed after 2004, but the test actually changed after 2003.<BR/><BR/>Ok... my brain hurts.TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-80722216659530026692007-03-12T07:55:00.000-04:002007-03-12T07:55:00.000-04:00Stiles is correct:In the NYT article it says: "And...Stiles is correct:<BR/><BR/>In the NYT article it says: <BR/><BR/>"And while 17 percent of African-Americans lacked basic reading skills when Madison started its reading effort in 1998, that number had plunged to 5 percent by 2004. <B>The exams changed after 2004, making it impossible to compare recent results with those of 1998.</B>"<BR/><BR/>Also the Wisconsin website <A HREF="http://dpi.wi.gov/oea/pdf/profnewq_a.pdf" REL="nofollow">says</A> alot about this issue.<BR/><BR/>I took the <A HREF="http://www.dpi.wi.gov/oea/xls/wrct05.xls" REL="nofollow">WCRT data from 2005</A> in Madison and compared them to the <A HREF="http://data.dpi.state.wi.us/data/graphshell.asp?Group=AllStudentsFAY&GraphFile=GEDISA&DETAIL=YES&Grade=3&SubjectID=1RE&EligibleOnly=NO&Level=ALL&WOW=WKCE&ORGLEVEL=ST&FULLKEY=ZZZZZZZZZZZZ&DN=None+Chosen&SN=None+Chosen" REL="nofollow">2005 WKCE data</A>.<BR/><BR/>The numbers line up pretty well, but not exactly<BR/><BR/>Category WRCT vs WCKE<BR/>Advanced 42.4% vs 42%<BR/>Proficient 40.3% vs 37%<BR/>Basic 8.1% vs 13%<BR/>Below Basic 1.5% vs 4% (note I combine two categories on the WCKE)<BR/><BR/>Seems like Wisconsin is doing everything in their power to keep us from comparing numbers.TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-47541441472762010262007-03-11T21:21:00.000-04:002007-03-11T21:21:00.000-04:00Ken,The disaggregated data Rory linked to is not f...Ken,<BR/><BR/>The disaggregated data Rory linked to is not for the old 3rd grade reading test under discussion. It was given for the last time in the spring of 2005.<BR/><BR/>The data Rory links to is for the grades 3-8, 10 state achievement tests administered in the fall. Grades 3, 5, 6, and 7 were added to this assessment beginning the fall of 2005.<BR/><BR/>Not saying the aggregate and disaggregated performance would necessary be different, but this is a different assessment.<BR/><BR/>Best...Stileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16029062337353099616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-67371817418792398842007-03-11T11:36:00.000-04:002007-03-11T11:36:00.000-04:00oh, thanks!I was all set to get this whole thing o...oh, thanks!<BR/><BR/>I was all set to get this whole thing out to the Irvington Parents Forum when suddenly you seemed to be saying that Reading First schools were doing worse!<BR/><BR/>Are you going to follow up with an explanation of the 1/4 standard deviation??<BR/><BR/>(Not that I need it, but I'm interested.)Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-48820683561877857652007-03-10T22:14:00.000-05:002007-03-10T22:14:00.000-05:00Right, is the last update misreported or are you c...<I>Right, is the last update misreported or are you conceding that the reading first schools are doing worse?</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry. The Reading First schools are the ones that were eligible for funding but didn't get it because Madison opted to teach them using whole language.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-17218995480241812652007-03-10T21:50:00.000-05:002007-03-10T21:50:00.000-05:00Right, is the last update misreported or are you c...Right, is the last update misreported or are you conceding that the reading first schools are doing worse?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-48577177911257398772007-03-10T21:43:00.000-05:002007-03-10T21:43:00.000-05:00wait!I don't follow the latest.The schools that ar...wait!<BR/><BR/>I don't follow the latest.<BR/><BR/>The schools that <I>are</I> using SBRR programs are 1/4 standard deviation below the schools that <I>aren't</I> using SBRR programs?Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-43499893839348557892007-03-10T14:03:00.000-05:002007-03-10T14:03:00.000-05:00death by datadeath by dataCatherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-15734109943599381212007-03-10T10:41:00.000-05:002007-03-10T10:41:00.000-05:00Well how about this... At least one person on the ...Well how about this... At least one person on the Madison School Board already knows the gains are imaginary.<BR/><BR/>Here is a letter that Ruth Robarts of the Madison Board of Educatin wrote into their local paper.<BR/><BR/>http://www.schoolinfosystem.org/archives/2004/12/index.php<BR/><BR/><I>Thanks to Jason Shepard for highlighting comments of UW Psychology Professor Mark Seidenberg at the Dec. 13 Madison School Board meeting in his article, �Not all good news on reading�. Dr. Seidenberg asked important questions following the administration�s presentation on the reading program. One question was whether the district should measure the effectiveness of its reading program by the percentages of third-graders scoring at �proficient� or �advanced� on the Wisconsin Reading Comprehension Test (WRCT). He suggested that the scores may be improving because the tests �aren�t that rigorous�.<BR/><BR/>I have reflected on his comment and decided that he is correct.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Using success on the WRCT as our measurement of student achievement likely overstates the reading skills of our students. The WRCT---like the Wisconsin Knowledge and Concepts Examination (WKCE) given in major subject areas in fourth, eighth and tenth grades--- measures student performance against standards developed in Wisconsin. The more teaching in Wisconsin schools aims at success on the WRCT or WKCE, the more likely it is that student scores will improve. If the tests provide an accurate, objective assessment of reading skills, then rising percentages of students who score at the �proficient� and �advanced� levels would mean that more children are reaching desirable reading competence. <BR/>However, there are reasons to doubt that high percentages of students scoring at these levels on the WRCT mean that high percentages of students are very proficient readers. High scores on Wisconsin tests do not correlate with high scores on the more rigorous National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) tests.<BR/><BR/>In 2003, 80% of Wisconsin fourth graders scored �proficient� or �advanced� on the WCKE in reading. However, in the same year only 33% of Wisconsin fourth graders reached the �proficient� or �advanced� level in reading on the NAEP. Because the performance of Madison students on the WCKE reading tests mirrors the performance of students statewide, it is reasonable to conclude that many of Madison�s �proficient� and �advanced� readers would also score much lower on the NAEP. For more information about the gap between scores on the WKCE and the NAEP in reading and math, see EdWatch Online 2004 State Summary Reports at www.edtrust.org. <BR/><BR/>Next year the federal No Child Left Behind Act replaces the Wisconsin subject area tests with national tests. In view of this change and questions about the value of WRCT scores, it�s time for the Board of Education to review its benchmarks for progress on its goal of all third-graders reading at grade level by the end of third grade. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Ruth Robarts<BR/>Member, Madison Board of Education</I><BR/><BR/>End Quoted LetterTurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-53809209732235926742007-03-10T08:26:00.000-05:002007-03-10T08:26:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-14694617764616377502007-03-10T08:16:00.000-05:002007-03-10T08:16:00.000-05:00That's a nice use of diagrams - it really makes it...That's a nice use of diagrams - it really makes it easy to show the flim-flam that's occuring. If it's all right with you, I'd like to use that diagram next year when I talk about misleading statistics to my students.Linda Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15024201252345608291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-71525038685690489042007-03-09T20:55:00.000-05:002007-03-09T20:55:00.000-05:00And Liberman quotes you in an update:DeRosa's argu...And Liberman <A HREF="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004288.html" REL="nofollow">quotes you in an update:</A><BR/><BR/><I>DeRosa's argument seems pretty persuasive to me. If he's right, then I'd consider a different evaluation -- was Schemo bamboozled by the Madison school authorities, or did she pick Madison, and spin the story as she did, in order to make an essentially dishonest point, suggesting that the mean old federal bureaucrats are trying to stop the dedicated local educators from continuing to use the methods that are helping their children so much?</I>Liz Ditzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455722013211350247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-60303291735241976482007-03-09T19:19:00.000-05:002007-03-09T19:19:00.000-05:00Liz from I Speak of Dreams.Thanks for the excellen...Liz from <A HREF="http://lizditz.typepad.com" REL="nofollow">I Speak of Dreams</A>.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the excellent smackdown, Ken.<BR/><BR/>Two related posts, one from Language Log and one from me:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004288.html" REL="nofollow">Language Log: Reading Corruption</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2007/03/a_bitter_and_sw.html" REL="nofollow">A Bitter and Sweet Story: Wisconsin Boy's Unremediated Dyslexia</A>.Liz Ditzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455722013211350247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-38371274754234990822007-03-09T17:10:00.000-05:002007-03-09T17:10:00.000-05:00From the article"Deborah C. Simmons, who helped wr...From the article<BR/><BR/>"Deborah C. Simmons, who helped write the guide, said it largely reflected the available research, but acknowledged that even now, no studies have tested whether children learn to read faster or better through programs that rated highly in the guide."<BR/><BR/>Ah... PFT never happened.TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-58485104744896680822007-03-09T17:01:00.000-05:002007-03-09T17:01:00.000-05:00Thanks, Rory.Exactly as I predicted.white scores i...Thanks, Rory.<BR/><BR/>Exactly as I predicted.<BR/><BR/>white scores in the low 90s.<BR/><BR/>Black scores at mid 50s instead of 64%.<BR/><BR/>That's consistent with a .77 sd shift.<BR/><BR/>I'll update later.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-59784994323672119112007-03-09T16:53:00.001-05:002007-03-09T16:53:00.001-05:00link<A HREF="http://data.dpi.state.wi.us/data/graphshell.asp?Group=Race/Ethnicity&GraphFile=GEDISA&DETAIL=YES&Grade=4&SubjectID=1RE&EligibleOnly=NO&Level=ALL&WOW=WSAS&ORGLEVEL=DI&FULLKEY=02326903ZZZZ&DN=Madison+Metropolitan&SN=Show+Schools" REL="nofollow">link</A>TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-30694604903967291112007-03-09T16:53:00.000-05:002007-03-09T16:53:00.000-05:00http://data.dpi.state.wi.us/data/graphshell.asp?Gr...http://data.dpi.state.wi.us/data/graphshell.asp?Group=Race/Ethnicity&GraphFile=GEDISA&DETAIL=YES&Grade=4&SubjectID=1RE&EligibleOnly=NO&Level=ALL&WOW=WSAS&ORGLEVEL=DI&FULLKEY=02326903ZZZZ&DN=Madison+Metropolitan&SN=Show+Schools<BR/><BR/>I think this is the disaggregated data you were looking for...TurbineGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09781298806992944235noreply@blogger.com