tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post6995398505660883476..comments2024-03-26T14:44:37.985-04:00Comments on D-Ed Reckoning: Dan Brown has been socially promotedKDeRosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-39553957390191264282008-02-04T02:51:00.000-05:002008-02-04T02:51:00.000-05:00"Poverty also correlates with less experienced tea..."Poverty also correlates with less experienced teachers on average, a higher percentage of teachers teaching out of field, larger class sizes, teachers with lower SATs prior to college, fewer computers, etc. etc. etc."<BR/><BR/>This is such an urban/suburban perspective. Having lived, taught and had my own children in schools in small towns, I found the more affluent kids generally did better than less affluent, in spite of attending the same schools and even preschools. The poor kids are adequately fed lunch and breakfast by the school, so hunger isn't likely the issue (based on the obesity rate they don't likely miss dinner either). Dumping in more money to "level the playing field" seems a dubious answer." <BR/><BR/>JS, Juneau, AlaskaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-22030925812395748892008-01-31T11:23:00.000-05:002008-01-31T11:23:00.000-05:00Anon,You are confusing correlation with causation....Anon,<BR/><BR/>You are confusing correlation with causation.<BR/><BR/>It's easy to show the correlation, but tye causation has not yet been shown. Given the correlation between poverty and academic achievemment, there are four possible interpretations: 1. poverty causes academic failure, 2. academic failure causes poverty, some third factor causes both academic failure and poverty, or 4. it's a coincidence.<BR/><BR/>Pointing to other "leveling the playingfield" correlations don't remedy the causal deficiency. In fact one way to show that your "levling the playing field" hypothesis is inaccurate, is examine student performance of the poor under level conditions. One way to do this is ti examine the performance of the poor at wealthy suburban school districts. What you find is that the achievement gap remians at these level playing field schools too, especially considering that the poor in these schools are less poor than the students in urban school districts. Here's a <A HREF="http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2007/09/take-look-at-what-48-million-buys-you.html" REL="nofollow">good example</A>. <BR/><BR/>Maybe Stephen Downes can explain this phenomenon for us.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-7819197168025244102008-01-31T10:45:00.000-05:002008-01-31T10:45:00.000-05:00I suspect the reason that correlation between pove...I suspect the reason that correlation between poverty and academic skills is so difficult to establish is because there are so many additional inequalities. Poverty also correlates with less experienced teachers on average, a higher percentage of teachers teaching out of field, larger class sizes, teachers with lower SATs prior to college, fewer computers, etc. etc. etc. <BR/><BR/>Level the playing field and it's easier to establish causation. On the other hand, when you measure the achievement of low income kids and correlate to the percentage of of low income kids in their school, I believe the findings are that scores go up as percentages go down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-20439389272211408842008-01-30T20:59:00.000-05:002008-01-30T20:59:00.000-05:00You are right, Linda, I was a bit overzealous in m...You are right, Linda, I was a bit overzealous in my description. Brown's hiding of the premise is more sophisticated than a voice change.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-50026275234987815922008-01-30T20:34:00.000-05:002008-01-30T20:34:00.000-05:00KDR says, "Underlying this argument, which is mast...KDR says, "Underlying this argument, which is masterfully hidden by Brown's use of the passive voice, is the premise . . ."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, no sentences in the passive voice in that paragraph.Linda Seebachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06426741820143208210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-20354026559001552312008-01-30T16:47:00.000-05:002008-01-30T16:47:00.000-05:00Leaving aside the cause, the grade/promotion syste...Leaving aside the cause, the grade/promotion system is just absurd these days. Why not have a high school readiness test? If you pass the test, you go to high school. You don't pass the test, you go to a special school where you focus solely on passing that test. <BR/><BR/>None of this nonsense about making kids repeat 8th grade, which won't do a thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-5526182407005911042008-01-29T19:06:00.000-05:002008-01-29T19:06:00.000-05:00and all manner of bandaid fixes - up to and includ...<I>and all manner of bandaid fixes - up to and including NCLB - haven't made the slighest dent on that correlation.</I><BR/><BR/>There is one large counterexample, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Follow_Through" REL="nofollow">project follow through</A> in which one educational intervention raised student performance of the poor students by about standard deviation without having to raise them out of poverty.KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-73955879604519362332008-01-29T18:17:00.000-05:002008-01-29T18:17:00.000-05:00Stephen, you are appealing to authority. Plus, be...Stephen, you are appealing to authority. Plus, being in the trenches doesn't necessarily confer any authority. Was Brown successful in raising student achievement? I don't know, do you?<BR/><BR/>With respect to poverty and education, I posted about it <A HREF="http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2007/09/poverty-nclb-and-excuses.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Correlation, persistent correlation, what's the difference? Can you discount the possibility that some third factor causes both poverty and low student achievement. Here's one possible third factor -- low IQ. Loe IQ correlates with both poverty and low student performance.<BR/><BR/>What we lack is causation. What we lack is something showing that raising people out of poverty increases student achievement. What do you have? I've found nothing.<BR/><BR/>There are many poor and illiterate people in both Canada and Finland according to the UN. What are you referring to?KDeRosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853211164976890091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25541994.post-45634383241355361752008-01-29T17:23:00.000-05:002008-01-29T17:23:00.000-05:00I find it interesting that you choose to trash Bro...I find it interesting that you choose to trash Brown's recommendations after he has spent a year, as you say, "in the trenches". One wonders what in that experience would make him so wrong about everything he says?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe... based on his on the ground observations... what he says is in fact right.<BR/><BR/>And maybe the bias is in the criticism. Brown's 'big conclusion', far from being a restatement of Marx, could have been cribbed almost word for word from John Stuart Mill as he calls for the alleviation of poverty and universal education.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, you write, "Poverty correlates with low academic skills, but no one has been able to prove that poverty causes low academic skills."<BR/><BR/>It's not simply that it correlates, it persistently correlates, and all manner of bandaid fixes - up to and including NCLB - haven't made the slighest dent on that correlation. Moreover, many explanations have been advanced linking poverty and low attainment: poor nutrition, the lack of resources, the lower expectations, the different socialization. <BR/><BR/>One wonders: given all of this, what would for you constitute proof? Is there anything that would climb your mountain of doubt and allow you to agree that, yes, reforms that directly address basic social inequalities will be necessary to improve learning outcomes?<BR/><BR/>After all - it has worked for places like Canada, Finland, and all those other nations with significant government interventions in both the economy and the education system. Why would Americans somehow be immune from poverty - or unable to benefit from its alleviation.Stephen Downeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06140591903467372209noreply@blogger.com